In this episode, Dave Broering, President of Integrated Logistics at NFI, joins Host Brian Glick, CEO of Chain.io, to discuss:
- Creating good relationships between shippers and carriers
- The difference between non-asset solutions and integrated logistics
- Dave's passion for the tech and startup scene
- What freight forwarding customers actually want
- Advice to the next generation of logistics leaders
Dave has over two decades of experience within the non-asset based logistics space. Through that time, he has developed an expertise in creating fast-growing and efficient operations focused on customer service and execution.
As President of Integrated Logistics Solutions, Dave leads the Brokerage, Intermodal, Global Freight Forwarding, and 4PL services at NFI, one of the largest privately held 3PL’s in the US. By combining his upbringing at both American Backhaulers and CH Robinson with his blend of technological focus and operational execution, Dave’s Non-Asset division continues to be one of the fastest growing divisions within NFI.
Tune into the episode now!
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Dave Broering 00:04
You know, in the end relationship connects back to that idea of, I'm going to only give you the as an intermediary standing between your pickup and your delivery and your sometimes last representation of your service to your customer. I'm only going to tell you about the things you need to know about. And that is different from shipper to shipper from carrier to carrier. And so some shippers want to know about every single problem that happens, and others only want to know about the ones that are going to blow up in their face when they open an email from their customer. And understanding that is about the relationship.
Brian Glick 00:43
Welcome to Supply Chain Connections. I'm Brian Glick, your host and CEO of Chain.io. Today we've got a pretty awesome guest honored to have de burring, who is the president of integrated solutions at NFIB, one of the largest privately held trucking providers in the United States. And so without further ado, let's just get to the episode. This is a long one. And I'm really excited to be able to bring it all to you. Dave, welcome to the show.
Dave Broering 01:13
Brian, good to see you again. And very happy to be here.
Brian Glick 01:16
Great. So why don't we start with just a little bit of introduction of your background and who identify is for any of our audience that may not have heard of you?
Dave Broering 01:25
Sure. And I'll try to do the short version because I can do the long version and we'll be asleep by the time I get to the end of the long version. But I graduated University of Dayton back in 1997. With a perfect degree for logistics, I got a degree in English literature, graduated had no idea what I was going to do with my life and sort of fell backwards into freight brokerage with a little company called American back haulers that many people have heard of that became sort of the genesis of the freight brokerage market specifically in Chicago, if not more broadly around the world and spent the next we got acquired by Robinson a couple years and I spent the next 14 years of my career from prior to departure with Robinson learned a tremendous amount about just logistics in general. And not just domestic logistics, but also international logistics is a big part of what we were doing there and got an opportunity to come and build a business inside of NFIB organization. They were really looking to grow a freight brokerage business in connection to their trucking and warehousing business. And so you know what better way to do that than to rip your life apart and grab your young kids and your wife and move to a place you've never been before in Philadelphia. So back in 2012, we did that just a little bit less than 11 years ago. And since I've joined here, we for X our revenue as a company and a phi has become probably the second largest privately held family owned logistics company in the United States behind I think so this is probably the only other one that's bigger than us at this point. And MFI is a trucking and warehousing business, we are over 70 million square feet of warehouse 3000 of our identified trucks running around the country, we've become a relatively large force in the non Essbase logistics space under my purview. And then one of the top three drainage and transloading providers in the United States and based right here in glorious Philadelphia.
Brian Glick 03:19
So I'll start with the with the Philadelphia question first, because obviously, we're to have a very short list of logistics companies based in Philadelphia, coming from Chicago, which obviously is the you know, sort of a hub for logistics, what have you found different have operating in sort of the hinterlands of the logistics space out here in Philadelphia?
Dave Broering 03:42
You know, it's interesting, because we were right downtown in Chicago, where I worked and grew up. And the big thing for us always was that being in the city, you get access to this great talent and tons of kids love moving to Chicago after they graduate from college and trying to figure out their way through the world. And it gave us all these great opportunities moved to Philly, and the South Jersey suburbs more specifically, because we are on the wrong side of the Delaware. From that perspective. It's been very similar, tons of great opportunities for young talent coming out of college, but a little bit more aggressiveness than you would get in the suburbs of Chicago. And so what I would say is like the pace of things growing up in Ohio and moving to Chicago, that was like a step forward from a frenetic pace of life and living in the city. And then moving to the suburbs in Philly. We never really took a step back from that frenetic pace. That's just the way the East Coast moves. And so we felt very at home here. We found a ton of tremendous talent here. And as you said, we're there aren't very many big logistics companies in the area. So we also tend to get a lot of the really good talent that's interested in growing with a big company. Well,
Brian Glick 04:56
we're recording this prior to the Superbowl but I'm sure we'll pull Sit afterwards. So for anyone who is uncertain what that intensity looks like, I guarantee you that if you go on to Tik Tok, by the time this airs, you can see plenty of Philadelphia intensity one way or the other coming out of the Super
Dave Broering 05:12
Bowl. So I don't think I've ever been around a more intense fan base ever in my life. And this is coming from a person who's a Bears fan, which by the way, happy to see the Eagles succeed. And it's great to be able to root for a local team, at least passively. So, but I've never ever experienced anything like Philadelphia sports fans, it is a unique unto itself,
Brian Glick 05:33
it is a very hard thing to explain to the outside world. So
Dave Broering 05:36
Well, everybody just knows that from throwing batteries at Santa or the jail that's in the bottom of the link or these other things that people know about. But the truth of the matter is those things all exist for a reason. It's because people take their sports very, very seriously in this town. Yes.
Brian Glick 05:52
Change the topic slightly. So we were talking before he joined about your title. And you and your group has changed names from non asset solutions to integrated logistics. Why is that important? What's the difference?
Dave Broering 06:04
Well, first, we love to give out swag just like anybody else does. And all this clothes we kept hearing over and over again was. So one, nobody knew what Logistics was before the pandemic, right. So nobody cared about the supply chain. If you tried to explain what we did to people, their eyes roll back in their head, they glaze over, it's boring. Even worse, these people are wearing something that says non asset on it. And it confused people even further like so Wait, you're not an asset of the company. And so what we had done with the non asset nomenclature we were using was we'd really brought our internal language out to the street in naming it the way we did. And when I started, I was just the brokerage guy. And over the course of five to seven years, we've really aggregated a bunch of disparate businesses inside of MFI acquired some other businesses from the outside and snap them in to create this portfolio of non asset services that really integrate with our other services to create value. And so as we move to the new name of integrated logistics, we were really focused on how do we tell the outside world what we do. In working with our other divisions, we have more examples than we have time to exhibit that of places where are other divisions where we're working with them to provide extra capacity or inbound support for warehouses or outbound moves or extra capacity, the drage team needs where we are at the outlet valve or the connective tissue that's helping these other services be more valuable to the to our enterprise clients. So we felt like integrated logistics best exhibited that for the outside world to consume, and oh, by the way, made our employees feel a little bit better about the name and the process.
Brian Glick 07:40
So when you are non asset based, let's go back to the other word for a second, the differentiation can't be how many trucks you own. Right. So it's often a lot of it is service, and also the tech on top of it. I know that you personally probably take a closer look at tech than any other president of a group that I deal with on a day to day basis, kind of why do you have so much passion around tech and the startup scene? Kind of why?
Dave Broering 08:09
Yeah, I mean, part of it is just my upbringing. So I was American Backhauler was the first non US based logistics provider to build their own TMS of any scale or value over the top of green screens, related technologies. And so and I don't mean the existing company that has pricing, I mean, the actual as 400, green screen style, business, and systems that people were using that was very common in the 70s in the 80s, 60s, 70s, and 80s. And so when I started out of college at back haulers, we were using a Visual Basic database driven system that was had been designed specifically for that company. And it really kind of struck home for me, because every once in a while in my first six months, a shipper would ask me for an update about something and they said, give me a call back and I'm like, hold on a second, I can tell you right now. And they're like what, like, hold on a second, I'll tell you and I gave him an update in there. Like, there's just a pause and like, how did you know that? What do you mean, how did I know that like there was this or that was coming from the power that the system was giving me as a user and as a new operator, that the shipper wasn't expecting to hear from us. And then add in the fact that my brother, my little brother, who's two and a half years younger than me, who is my best friend has been for a very long time. He joined the business out of college after coming out of Michigan with an industrial engineering degree, and really on the computer language and software development side of things. And we were roommates and our best friends, roommates for the better part of the next 10 years and still remain best friends today. And so I got to see the software side of things from the inside with my brother kind of coming up inside of Robinson and doing that and notably hitting a jack and moving on to a startup to do that work with command, which got bought by echo. And now back with me as my CTO, working with me to help develop our own TMS. But it was always this idea that technology can make a user better they're at their job. And so we call it intelligence augmentation. Right, which is not our term. That's a term that the market uses. But it's this idea of giving the user superhuman powers to give them the ability to provide a better service to the customer. Whether or not the customer understands what's actually driving that. And so this idea of like, how did you know that, but getting back to that, and finding ways to drive that is a way to really help, you know, to provide great things. Oh, and now on the way what I've learned is working with young technology companies as partners, one, they're helping us obviate costs on the buy versus build, right? So we don't want to build anything that somebody else has got as a product, that doesn't make any sense. We want to consume it from somebody else. But then how do we support those companies, as an early stage consumer to make sure that they get the best highlight to the street to make sure they get the best street credibility to make sure their investors understand what they do, however, we can support them. Along the way, I've learned a ton about how these companies go to market and the way they build things. So it's sort of a long winded answer. But really, what it comes down to is, like, understanding how the technology drives the success of the business, and then fitting it into that highest and best use for highlighting the things that we do really well as a people lead relationship driven business is really the super most important part of what we're trying to do with technology.
Brian Glick 11:24
So the audience won't be able to see this because we're audio only. But as you're talking about this relationships, I can see over your shoulder that on your whiteboard, the only thing right is the words, relationships are all that matter. So I guess I could vouch for the fact that you're living it every day. I do appreciate that idea that the tech doesn't always have to be the forward leading edge of the knife, though that can still be people. I do see a lot of executives who get confused between tech empowering the business and the website, right or the portal. Now, I think people have evolved past the website, but that Oh, well. If we have it in a portal, then then all of our problems go away. So oh, by
Dave Broering 12:02
the way, we don't have a portal, well, yeah, we don't have an app. So we spend probably $10 million a year on technology as a division, maybe more. And it's not a point of pride, to be honest with you. But it is a point of we're giving the shippers and the carriers what they want, the way they want it. And sometimes that's a live report that we're giving them through one of our partner tools like MetaBase, or something like that. But we're not doing it in that canonized way that everybody expects, because quite honestly, someone people really want in the end, they want to be met where they are. And that is not in the form of a website. So I'm very passionate about that idea of not just going the way the herd goes, but thinking about and taking a step back and saying what's the highest and best use of our resources? And what do our customers actually want from us?
Brian Glick 12:53
What do they want more than anything?
Dave Broering 12:55
Their stuff delivered on time and and they want it for like the least hassle possible at the lowest cost possible. And, you know, in the end relationship connects back to that idea of, I'm going to only give you the as an intermediary standing between your pickup and your delivery and your sometimes last representation of your service to your customer. I'm only going to tell you about the things you need to know about. And that is different from shipper to shipper from carrier to carrier. And so some shippers want to know about every single problem that happens. And others only want to know about the ones that are going to blow up in their face when they open an email from their customer. And understanding that is about the relationship. And so in the grand scheme of things, what we try to do is to create value by right of understanding those nuances about your business by digging in and knowing what product you're shipping, why your customers are buying your product. Those things help us make good decisions on your behalf, which gives you more bandwidth back to go do other things. Because Lord knows one thing every company had been trying to figure out is how to push more stuff through the same sized business in order to drive some semblance of net profitability with all the inflation squeezing that's going on in this market and all the costs, you know, sort of spinning out of control at the same time trying to figure out demand, we can take some of that work off their plate by being their intermediary and representation of that service.
Brian Glick 14:21
So in all of that, what aren't you seeing out there from the tech companies that you wish you were seeing? Or where are you guys struggling? What are the hard parts?
Dave Broering 14:31
Well, data is the hardest thing. I mean, you know, making sense of data, getting data to a place where you can interrelate to various segments of data or different aspects of data in a relational database concepts and this is just I'm in the weeds with this right now. So it's also just front of mind, in the sense that we build our TMS to be really data centric, and to be able to give us some real value on the back end. To create a feeling of scale without having scale. And by that, I mean, when I left Robinson, the thing I took for granted that I didn't realize it took for granted until the day I started, MFI was the footprint of the data. And so all the pricing data that I had at my fingertips that was being driven, reciprocally, every single day, the way you buy today is the way you sell tomorrow, that all disappeared overnight for me. And I was left standing there 1011 years ago with dad, and I'm like, oh, man, I have to figure out how to price this freight all over again. And I've got to think about it a completely different way. And what's in my brain is not able to be extrapolated out to hundreds of people, because it just doesn't work that way. So how do we create a better data footprint to be able to do that? Well, it's great. But operational data is only one aspect of that. So how do you layer in other data along with that, that helps create better relational value, that's really hard, and getting the right things to line up at the right, like the data modelling to where all the various inputs have the same net result. So that when you're looking at a load, it's a load and not a pro or an order, or whatever it is, that stuff is really, really hard. And is the thing that I know the market is chasing, but nobody has gotten to that. I'll call it automated data modeling. But it's really more of this idea of enterprise transmission, language creation, that doesn't require the amount of janitorial work that's happening today. And I think that's where we're really struggling as just an industry is that we have all this data, but we don't have a great way to correlate it.
Brian Glick 16:39
And I will say, as somebody who spent most of my career on the international side, it's even worse. So right, at least there's a lot of transactions in trucking.
Dave Broering 16:49
Right? Well, and it's three parties, right. Whereas when you get the global, it could be seven to 10 parties. And yes, it's even more complex and even more paper driven. And it's partially the nature of our industry. And it being really latent to the overall kind of speed of data and momentum of data. But it's also just this idea that I think people now understand how to get to the data, I just don't think they know how to relate it, and how to make it valuable. Because in the end, like we have a reporting tool called MetaBase. MetaBase is great. But we have like 4000 MetaBase reports. But I think only 10% of them get used on a weekly basis. So people think they know something they want, they have it spun up, they go to use it, and then they never come back to it again, because it didn't actually give them the value they thought they would get from it. And so in the end, like I think people really struggled to figure out how to make sense or create value from the data. And that's the thing that we really have to zoom in on and figure out, how do we do this? How do we make value of something that we are getting as a byproduct of how we operate.
Brian Glick 18:00
So back in the day when I administered it as 400, because we're about the same age, one of the tricks that I learned from somebody, they used to disable all of the reports, once a quarter, all the scheduled reports would get turned off. And they wouldn't tell anybody about it. And then they would find that Yes, something like 10% of them would get turned back on because somebody would open a support request. And then those were all being printed on printers. So just the paper savings, the ROI of the paper savings of just turning off everybody's daily reports that were getting picked up and getting dropped in the trashcan every day, it was pretty intense back that.
Dave Broering 18:38
And so there's an additional gap there, though. And the only other thing I would say is that data discovery tools, so a Tableau or a sai sense, or Power BI, they're getting better, but they still require something more than an operator to really get real value out of them. And so I think that's the additional struggle is that if you think about the average everyday operator that's looking for insights from their data, they don't have a computer science background. They don't understand statistical modeling, by the way, I don't either. And so like when you look at these things, it's like, okay, what do I do with this, like, the reason MetaBase has been so powerful for us is because it is a reporting tool, it's giving you exactly what you asked for. And you can ask for permutations of it and you can tweak it, but you're not doing the tweaking a data analyst is doing the tweaking and updating that webpage that you're looking at. But it's that insight that's gotten or the derivative that comes from going down a level into something that I think our operators really struggle with. And I don't think anybody's really hit on the exact right interface to get non technical people the ability to really deep dive into their own data sets.
Brian Glick 19:57
That gets actually pretty deep into something that I think about a lot, both with our technical team and kind of just from my days in OPS, which is, there's this thinking that it or tech or you know, used to be one department, and now, it's different groups, right, but is about taking instructions and making things work, as opposed to contributing thought to the business. And that in this kind of world that we're in now, this data world, there's a group of people who kind of are in many organizations kind of homeless, that are deeply technical, but closer to the business problem, because they're doing that analysis, or they're doing that kind of second level and third level thinking, and that that's not operations, right. That's not, you know, let's make sure that we have a truck at this location on Tuesday at 8am. But it's certainly also not traditional IT of, you know, take this statement of work from someone and return them back a working functioning program. Do you see a home for those people? Do you think about that differently?
Dave Broering 21:02
So we just recently have started up an internal data practice specifically to go after how to solve this problem. And partially, it's because our TMS is getting to a mature state where we have a majority of the business of the freight brokerage business moving through this, I'm not espousing we have a global TMS by any stretch, just to be clear, nor are we ever going to try to tackle that one. But from domestic perspective, we're now starting with their own data practice internally to try to tackle this partially through relational structure, but also partially just for through insights, and a better overall discovery concept. And we just recently onboard a new data engineer, and this person had probably 20 years experience in the industry as a data engineer. And as he's come on, we use Slack as our primary communication tool between our groups. And I'm watching our data engineer sort of digging through the databases and trying to understand things. And he's asking these great questions. I mean, like, great questions about not only what are these tables or one of these fields, but like, how does this connect? Like he asked at one point, why do we do this acquisition? It's like, that's a great question. And so it's like, we're trying to figure out and like, some people at the operator side might be like, no, no, you don't need to know the answer that question, just do your job. For us, we're trying to bring them closer to that in the sense of like having them shadow operations. And we want them to understand the lifecycle of an order. And they're in the nuts and bolts of this, right, they're down knee deep in the trenches of our data, they're the ones that are most likely to come up with an insight that we don't have, are not getting from our operators, because they look at the world differently. And so our perspective is that we've got to do whatever we can to bring them closer to the operations and the understanding of the way the business works, to allow that introspective opportunity to exist. Because if we keep them at arm's length, we'll get what we want, which is a clean functioning, you know, ongoing value of a database and a relational structure and probably a tool that accesses it correctly. But again, that's the most adept data person we have. So why would we not want them to understand as much about the business as they want to understand and if not more,
Brian Glick 23:13
So, the next big thing? So now you have all the data? And some of it right? What price to on this lane at this moment is sort of factual and you can pop it up on the screen, but a lot of it like how do we change? You know, what verticals we're targeting? Or how our sales process versus those types of things? There's a lot of organizational change management that has to happen to get people who have been in this business a long time to incorporate that data into their behaviors. How do you guys think about it, you know, What have your experiences been around getting people to actually use this information.
Dave Broering 23:47
So that is the rub, right? And the good news is that we've been talking about data and systems as decision support tools since the day we started the development of our TMS. So our people understand that we're looking to empower them to be the best versions of themselves. That's a great place to start from. First and foremost, I don't believe our people see us providing them with automation opportunities as a threat. I think they understand that what we're saying to them is we want them to be better at managing relationships. We want them to continue their march towards becoming a best in class account management organization, and use the tools that are given to them. But I will say that one of our biggest struggles is getting people to adopt new tools and new processes. And I'm convinced it's an iPhone, I blame it all on Apple. You know, the iPhone and the app ecosystem has made it so easy to learn how to do just the thing the app does, at its most superficial and never get deeper into it. I'm the guy who finishes every day with three emails in his inbox and his slack is clean, because I really dig deep into the tools that I Use every day and understand all the nuances. But I believe that most people in this world under the age of 35, are always floating along the surface. And so like one of the biggest challenges that we have is how do we get people to dive deeper. And so for us, it's really about training and development. And it's about talking about the things that are important and being very loud about those things, and then repeating it over and over again, with the status. But it's something like, if you want people to understand your vision or your mission, you have to say something like 41 times, something like I mean, it's like absurd. It's not like you say it once and it sticks. So we tend to really start with an information campaign, whether that be via our internal blog, where I tend to communicate with our teams, or via slack, where we're doing announcements about new products, new releases, new technologies, and then following it up with trainings. And we're in the very last stages of an LMS development, where we're looking at LMS is right now to find a better tool for getting to our people, and talking to our people about the things we want them to be good at. Because instead of the way I was right when I knew all the hotkeys in my old TMS and I could move through the screens faster than the screens could save. And that made me better at my job. And the faster I moved, the more money I could make, like it just doesn't work that way anymore. And it's because software has become such a white noise situation in our life. And because it governs everything we do, we have to be really prescriptive about the things we want them to focus on. Because if we don't, it could be everything in anything. And that honestly is a strategy for just like death by 1000 cuts of non engagement.
Brian Glick 26:38
So if you have to tell everyone something 41 times, and let's use that number purposes of argument here, I would actually argue it might be low. thing, you tell them twice a week, right, then you're talking about about half a year, give or take to really drive a change. Does being a privately held family business, make it easier to do that, because of the confidence that a half a year later, you can still have the same strategy. Does it set matter?
Dave Broering 27:10
Such a good question? It does, it absolutely does. And what I would say is that, what is great about NFIB and setting aside, privately held because I won't speak for every privately held company. But I will speak for this privately held company and say that we are investing for the long term, always we take the long term view with everything we do. And for me, I didn't value it as much as I should have on the way in, it wasn't the thing that I was really like locked in on as to why I wanted to join Enta phi. I love the family business, I missed the family culture that we had it back collars that I liked so much walking into my first day in that job. And I missed that. And I was looking to go back to that setting aside the fact that they're both very well respected Jewish families as well. And like I just happened to stumble back into a really nice Jewish family owned business. But it's one of those things where as I started to understand their thought process, our owners aren't building for sale, our owners aren't building for an IPO, our owners are building to get this business to the next generation, because they want to hand them the biggest business they possibly can, and then watch them grow it. And for us, that means medium and long term investments. And so yeah, it could take us like we're in the middle of an account management transition on our shipper side, that literally is 15 months in. And it's been a little bit rocky, we've it's not kind of swimmingly as we as we might have hoped. And that's for a lot of reasons. But the bottom line is we're fully committed to it. And we know, we may not see the value of it fully until 2024. But that's okay, because we're here for 2025 and 2026, and 2030. And none of us are going anywhere. So we may as well hunker down and do the right thing and build the right processes and make long term commitments and invest that way too. And so that's the way we approached it from our TMS. That's why we approach it from this data strategy perspective. And that's the way we approach it from a change management perspective, from an ops interaction perspective as well.
Brian Glick 29:10
Awesome. So I'm gonna give you one wrap up question, because we're sort of up on time. I know you and I could probably go for three or four hours here. So someone who's hopping into this industry today and they want to be in your seat and 2040 which is scary number to say out loud. What advice would you give them today to be where you are 17 years from now?
Dave Broering 29:36
So the thing I really latched on to as I joined this because you know again, I had a degree in English literature, I was aimless coming out of college, and I had no idea what I was going to do with my life. If I talked and listened to enough people, and sales weren't a dirty word. It had been sales, which is essentially what I did was I took a sales job out of freight brokerage, but what I realized when I got in there was that being an intermediate allows this connection to so many other businesses that if you're curious, and I would say at the bottom being curious is the thing, right? And it's probably the thing my wife would say is the most annoying about me. But it is the thing that helped me understand so many different perspectives on this world. And so by just understanding, and you heard me say it earlier, well, why does your customer buy this from you? You know, whoever right? Why does? Why does somebody buy pallet banding? Why does somebody buy, you know, shrink wrap, what's the value you're creating for them, by being a part of that company's value proposition, you start to understand better how companies build themselves and how companies work. And so by being in this really essential infrastructure that a company has in delivering either getting their inbound product or getting their products to their customers, you're in the middle of this traffic that's happening, no pun intended, and really ends up putting you in a position to learn so much about the way companies work. And so, you know, I'm running a really large business, I'll not define it by revenue, with no formal business training whatsoever. And my formal business training came from being in the seat, and doing the job and being curious and being willing to listen to anybody about the way that the businesses work. And I think that is a key to being successful. And then they're really asking questions about, I understand that's the way it's always been done. How do we do it differently, because logistics and supply chain is an industry full of people who've been doing it a certain way, in some cases for 30 or 40 years. And yes, we are constrained by things like railroad tracks, and ocean carriers that are not voluminous and or have any real opportunity to be disrupted. But there's still better ways to do things. And so really challenging that, and understanding how to find another way or to find a better way and a more transparent way, a more successful a lower cost way, those are the keys to being successful, longer term. And developing a career is always been about challenging that status quo. And it's not about breaking things, but it's about iterating on them. And that's where my English Literature degree comes back. Because there's really only four stories that have ever been written. And in the end, every story since then have all been an extrapolation from those original horror stories. You don't have to be original. To be successful, you just have to figure out how to do it your way.
Brian Glick 32:33
I think that is an awesome spot to wrap. So thank you so much for joining us and look forward to get me back on here soon.
Dave Broering 32:41
Thanks for having me, man. Really appreciate it.
Brian Glick 32:46
Well, thanks so much to Dave for all the insight it's always great to talk to a supply chain leader with such a depth of understanding of what we do on the system side of the industry. Be sure to tune in for our next episode, where we're going to be chatting with Sarah Barnes Humphrey, famous from Let's Talk Supply Chain. We'll be turning around the mic and hearing about her journey through the industry and what she's got going on. Talk to you all soon
